{"id":1024,"date":"2011-09-05T02:49:45","date_gmt":"2011-09-05T06:49:45","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/wizardwalk.com\/newblather\/?p=1024"},"modified":"2011-09-05T02:49:45","modified_gmt":"2011-09-05T06:49:45","slug":"some-random-thoughts-on-mind-and-matter","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"http:\/\/wizardwalk.com\/newblather\/?p=1024","title":{"rendered":"Some random thoughts on mind and matter"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Nothing new, I\u2019m sure, but I do wonder&#8230;<\/p>\n<p>The human brain is made of matter.&#160; Atoms, sub-atomic particles, quarks, etc.&#160; Perhaps we can define thought, consciousness, as a particular pattern of atomic movement.&#160; This is not to say that thought <em>is<\/em> this particular movement, only that it <em>emerges<\/em> when such movement is present.&#160; This would be compatible with a completely deterministic view of the world (and would also be compatible with Christianity and free will, depending on how they are understood). <\/p>\n<p>This leads to some questions.&#160; (Well, it leads to many questions, but these are the ones that come to my mind most prominently at the moment). <\/p>\n<p>Firstly, can consciousness exist without physical matter?&#160; A believer in an after life might be tempted to quickly answer yes.&#160; But what Heavenly religious figure ever claimed that the after life would be separated from physical manifestations?&#160; We can already claim that our consciousness isn&#8217;t <em>merely<\/em> physical; that is, it doesn&#8217;t exist just because a bunch of atoms exist.&#160; It <em>emerges<\/em> from the particular positions and movements of many billions of atoms.&#160; It&#8217;s like a marching band forming shapes and patterns on a football field; no individual performer creates the pattern; it is created by the collection of them, each in a certain position.&#160; The pattern is created by their positions and movements relative to one another.&#160; (That&#8217;s actually a strange analogy, however, since patterns and a sense of order in such assemblies actually emerge from the same thing: our consciousness.&#160; We <em>perceive<\/em> the order.&#160; That&#8217;s not to say that the order isn&#8217;t really there; it is.&#160; But there&#8217;s nothing <em>special<\/em> about it relative to anything else until it&#8217;s perceived by a consciousness.)&#160; Just as we can&#8217;t have a marching band formation without a certain number of members of a marching band, perhaps we can&#8217;t have consciousness without the necessary amount of atoms (and atoms to stimulate those atoms) existing in the proper order. <\/p>\n<p>Does the nature of the physical matter matter?&#160; If I represented each atom in the brain with a stone on an infinite concrete floor, and I represented its position in 3D space by moving stones around on a 1D line (like a Turing Machine), I could certainly <em>represent<\/em> any possible thought process (assuming determinism).&#160; Would such a representation be just as conscious, because it was worked through with physical means?&#160; What if I had an infinite amount of time and just thought about all the steps I would take to do so.&#160; Could I create a new consciousness from my consciousness?&#160; (Our consciousnesses would still be completely separate entities; I&#8217;m not claiming our conscious experiences would meld into one or anything.)&#160; Or does it all <em>have<\/em> to be directly done with only atoms? <\/p>\n<p>What if your brain existed in two places?&#160; That is, what if there was a brain completely like yours, but on another planet.&#160; It perceived the exact same things as you.&#160; Assuming determinism, we can even say it would make exactly the same decisions you would, and even think exactly the same thoughts.&#160; Would that other you <em>be<\/em> you?&#160; I reckon so!&#160; Different atoms, but exact same emergent property. <\/p>\n<p>OK, what if it was a copy of you as you are now, but from now on would have different perceptions, different experiences.&#160; A clone, essentially.&#160; Now you are <em>not<\/em> the same emergent property.&#160; But which one would <em>you<\/em> be? <\/p>\n<p>What if you died, but I saved the state of your mind right before you died and recreated you.&#160; Would that be <em>you<\/em>?&#160; Or a new person just like you?&#160; You might argue it would be a new person, because the atoms would all be different.&#160; But would that really matter so much? <\/p>\n<p>It&#8217;s strange, because even now, our brain is <em>flowing<\/em>; atoms are moving around, the physical manifestation of your current being is constantly changing.&#160; Our brains need food and oxygen to continue functioning (e.g. hold your breath long enough and you&#8217;ll pass out; hold it even longer and you&#8217;ll die; the brains needs certain particles in oxygen atoms to work). <\/p>\n<p>Are you the same you you were yesterday?&#160; If not, what happened to him? <\/p>\n<p>One thing that changes constantly, that we can&#8217;t function without, is memory.&#160; But there are quite a few philosophical problems we can get when fooling around with memory.&#160; Are you morally responsible for crimes you committed if you can&#8217;t remember them?&#160; Would you even really be <em>you<\/em> if you forgot too many memories, or if you were implanted with new false ones?&#160; Are memories of some sort an essential ingredient to consciousness?&#160; In other words, is any sort of consciousness possible without memory? <\/p>\n<p>If we continue being the same person even though the physical atoms in our brain change, and our memories change, why wouldn&#8217;t you be the same person if you mind had a new physical manifestation elsewhere in the universe?<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Nothing new, I\u2019m sure, but I do wonder&#8230; The human brain is made of matter.&#160; Atoms, sub-atomic particles, quarks, etc.&#160; Perhaps we can define thought, consciousness, as a particular pattern of atomic movement.&#160; This is not to say that thought is this particular movement, only that it emerges when such [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"spay_email":"","jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_is_tweetstorm":false,"jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true},"categories":[53],"tags":[],"jetpack_publicize_connections":[],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"","jetpack_shortlink":"https:\/\/wp.me\/p7gI4B-gw","_links":{"self":[{"href":"http:\/\/wizardwalk.com\/newblather\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1024"}],"collection":[{"href":"http:\/\/wizardwalk.com\/newblather\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"http:\/\/wizardwalk.com\/newblather\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/wizardwalk.com\/newblather\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/wizardwalk.com\/newblather\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=1024"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"http:\/\/wizardwalk.com\/newblather\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1024\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"http:\/\/wizardwalk.com\/newblather\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=1024"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/wizardwalk.com\/newblather\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=1024"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/wizardwalk.com\/newblather\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=1024"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}